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Offline FreeMountainHermit  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2014 4:57:27 PM(UTC)
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Guys. I'm in the process of filing out the forms for a APF. Would those of you that have gone through the process please give me a rough idea how long it takes before my permit will be approved or denied.

Thanks, FMH.
Offline RCRed  
#2 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 12:27:15 AM(UTC)
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3-6 months.. For mine it took 7 months in 2013...Now, I called them on occasion and listened to about 5 mins of recording to hear they included expected lag times for applications and when they would accept a call to check on status. Eventually, I got a call from them to verify a point and they wanted a better copy of my DL (Which has photo ID). After than it was another 6 weeks... Pretty much trashed 2013 for fuel production for me as I started in the Spring and got the permit the first of November.
Offline John Barleycorn  
#3 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 3:33:11 AM(UTC)
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"Red,

Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
I got a call from them to verify a point and they wanted a better copy of my DL (Which has photo ID).

I read that form several times (and did text searches) and I didn't see anything about a photo id. I know the Permits Online requests that ... as well as an OOI number. I suppose I can expect at least an additional six weeks added to the process then! Cursing"
Offline RCRed  
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 3:38:34 AM(UTC)
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Nor did I, but I was asked to provide via a phone call from the nice lady (Shirley) at the TTB, so I emailed a jpeg to them... After waiting 5 months, I asked when I would see the permit once I supplied the photo ID, and was told about six weeks - It was 8 weeks...

How curious I find that they required that photo ID but at the same time abhor asking for that when someone votes...
Offline John Barleycorn  
#5 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 3:49:04 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
How curious I find that they required that photo ID but at the same time abhor asking for that when someone votes...

My wife got carded on a football weekend upon entering an old college watering hole some years back. They just waived me right along. Well, wasn't she just thrilled and frisky after that! So, I've been a big fan of IDs since then! :)"
Offline RCRed  
#6 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 3:52:47 AM(UTC)
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Wink You prolly look sophisticated enough that they were afraid to ask :)

I already had an EIN number since I had planned all along to go the straight and narrow, so I used that.

I tell ya boys and girls, I am really starting to think we will become vital to our nation and her citizens when Oil jumps up so high no one can afford fuel.
Offline Bayou-Ruler  
#7 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 6:45:19 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: FreeMountainHermit Go to Quoted Post
Guys. I'm in the process of filing out the forms for a APF. Would those of you that have gone through the process please give me a rough idea how long it takes before my permit will be approved or denied.

Thanks, FMH.


§19.674 TTB action on small plant applications.

(a) Notice of receipt. Within 15 days of receipt of an application for a small plant permit, the appropriate TTB officer will send a written notice of receipt to the applicant. The notice will include a statement as to whether the application meets the requirements of §19.673. If the application does not meet the requirements of §19.673, the appropriate TTB officer will return the application to the applicant, and a new 15-day period will commence upon receipt of an amended or corrected application.

(b) Action on application. Within 45 days from the date that the appropriate TTB officer sent the applicant a notice of receipt of a completed application for a small plant permit, the appropriate TTB officer will either issue the permit or give notice in writing to the applicant stating in detail the reason that a permit will not be issued. Denial of an application will not prejudice any later application for a permit by the same applicant.

(c) Failure to give notice. If the notice of receipt required by paragraph (a) is not sent, and the applicant has a receipt indicating that the appropriate TTB officer received the application, the 45-day period provided for in paragraphs (b) and (d) of this section will commence on the fifteenth day after the date the appropriate TTB officer received the application.

(d) Presumption of approval. If, within 45 days from the date of the notice to the applicant of receipt of a completed application for a small plant permit, the appropriate TTB officer has not notified the applicant of issuance of the permit or denial of the application, the application will be deemed approved and the applicant may proceed as if a permit had been issued.

(e) Limitation. The provisions of paragraphs (a) and (c) of this section apply only to the first application submitted for any one small plant in any calendar quarter and to an amended or corrected first application."
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Offline RCRed  
#8 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 7:57:53 AM(UTC)
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Boy, I wished it was 45 days - the recordings on the TTB help desk said 120 days given current backlogs when I was waiting in 2013..I too believed what they had written in what Bayou posted.

I did not receive any notice at 15 days, or 45. It was almost six months to the day before I was contacted.
Offline John Barleycorn  
#9 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:03:24 PM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
Boy, I wished it was 45 days - the recordings on the TTB help desk said 120 days given current backlogs when I was waiting in 2013..I too believed what they had written in what Bayou posted.

I did not receive any notice at 15 days, or 45. It was almost six months to the day before I was contacted.


I'm sure that there will be a significant backlog due to the letters the TTB sent out. This is a burden that they created for themselves. They chose to kick down doors in FLA. They chose to arrest hobbyists (rather than real moonshiners). They chose to beat their chests by publishing their exploits in their newsletter. They chose to further harass hobbyists with letters that threaten $500K/10 year punishment. They chose to include the newsletter (now strutting like street-corner whores). And they chose to point recipients to their website.

So if you received a letter, you should automatically apply for your AFP. Use the written form and mail it in ... what do you care if it takes longer? It'll take them longer as well ... and paper has a cool way of piling up on desks. And even if you think you will be denied, send in an application anyway. After all, you're just an honest person who wants to make clean energy and follow the rules. Force them to handle your application ... to make a determination and provide a detailed reason why you were denied. And if you're denied a permit, complain to your representative. Do things in writing/email and keep all of your documentation.

Now here's the good part: those same regulations that apply to us also apply to them. So I'll tell you what, if anything is not handled by-the-book, call your representative and complain, then follow-up with a letter/email. If you don't receive a notice of receipt within 15 days, complain to your representative. If you don't receive your permit or a detailed reason for denial after 45 days, complain to your representative. If you don't receive notice of receipt within 15 days of an ammendment, complain to your representative. If you are denied and you are not provided a detailed reason for the denial, in writing, complain to your representative.

Given the current environment in DC these days, I'm sure that at least one of our reps will be more than happy to jump in to kick ass and take names. They are mostly a pack of wolves, many of which would love to take credit for uncovering yet another agency that doesn't follow its own rules.

Bury the TTB in their own regulations ... let the TTB live with the unintended consequence of their own actions. We've read how condenscending Mr. Hogue was with Congressman Whittman's aide ... who knows? Maybe we'll get to see how tough he is when he's testifying before a House Sub-committee!

--JB"
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#10 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:55:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn Go to Quoted Post
I'm sure that there will be a significant backlog due to the letters the TTB sent out. This is a burden that they created for themselves. They chose to kick down doors in FLA. They chose to arrest hobbyists (rather than real moonshiners). They chose to beat their chests by publishing their exploits in their newsletter. They chose to further harass hobbyists with letters that threaten $500K/10 year punishment. They chose to include the newsletter (now strutting like street-corner whores). And they chose to point recipients to their website.

So if you received a letter, you should automatically apply for your AFP. Use the written form and mail it in ... what do you care if it takes longer? It'll take them longer as well ... and paper has a cool way of piling up on desks. And even if you think you will be denied, send in an application anyway. After all, you're just an honest person who wants to make clean energy and follow the rules. Force them to handle your application ... to make a determination and provide a detailed reason why you were denied. And if you're denied a permit, complain to your representative. Do things in writing/email and keep all of your documentation.

Now here's the good part: those same regulations that apply to us also apply to them. So I'll tell you what, if anything is not handled by-the-book, call your representative and complain, then follow-up with a letter/email. If you don't receive a notice of receipt within 15 days, complain to your representative. If you don't receive your permit or a detailed reason for denial after 45 days, complain to your representative. If you don't receive notice of receipt within 15 days of an ammendment, complain to your representative. If you are denied and you are not provided a detailed reason for the denial, in writing, complain to your representative.

Given the current environment in DC these days, I'm sure that at least one of our reps will be more than happy to jump in to kick ass and take names. They are mostly a pack of wolves, many of which would love to take credit for uncovering yet another agency that doesn't follow its own rules.

Bury the TTB in their own regulations ... let the TTB live with the unintended consequence of their own actions. We've read how condenscending Mr. Hogue was with Congressman Whittman's aide ... who knows? Maybe we'll get to see how tough he is when he's testifying before a House Sub-committee!

--JB


Hey John,
What made them decide to send that letter out? I got one today and after cooling off a bit, I called them up and asked why I got it when I had been legal for over a year now? She asked for my license number which gave it to her and she said I was ok. She also kindly hinted like there might be more to come later on and that they might be going around and testing what people make to be sure that it's rendered "undrinkable". She also mentioned that state agencies might be getting involved as well. They've gone too far in my book. Maybe they ought to take notes as to what happened here in VA with the VABC agency. Several agents in charge were publicly fired for being to gun ho in the state capital not long ago. Maybe that needs to happen to them to set an example.
Offline RCRed  
#11 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 3:36:13 PM(UTC)
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Despite the opine of jackasses, the paper form isn't denied because it has "more" than the online form does - It does not.

And the people at the TTB didn't know any more than this was a courtesy letter (if you can call it that). We have heard that from a congressman who asked directly and what I heard directly. Whoever "hinted" there is more to come should STFU and stop scaring people. The TTB is counting on state govts to spend their monies to enforce.

File a paper form, it will take you about 2 hours to collect the required proofs (proof of land ownership, drawing and ID's) and mail it. They will not reject it unless you don't qualify (No external plant or a previous misdemeanor or felony). They did not reject mine, or three others I know used the paper form. The other point the misinformed is missing about the paper form is you can claim it's submitted while the backlog makes it impossible to satisfy the requests. Doing it online gives them a break and can burn thru quicker.

Misinforming people is more a piss off than the letter. KM, if you are really going to quit, please do so and leave us the alone.
Offline ace_of_spades  
#12 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2014 4:39:10 PM(UTC)
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I used the paper form and it took 48 days to get the permit, I may have just beat the rush since I got my permit 2 weeks ago.
Offline RCRed  
#13 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 1:39:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ace_of_spades Go to Quoted Post
I used the paper form and it took 48 days to get the permit, I may have just beat the rush since I got my permit 2 weeks ago.
That is good news. I hated having to wait for months last year w/o the ability to even call and check. I even stopped writing scathing emails to my congressman and senator :)
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#14 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 3:45:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
Despite the opine of jackasses, the paper form isn't denied because it has "more" than the online form does - It does not.

And the people at the TTB didn't know any more than this was a courtesy letter (if you can call it that). We have heard that from a congressman who asked directly and what I heard directly. Whoever "hinted" there is more to come should STFU and stop scaring people. The TTB is counting on state govts to spend their monies to enforce.

File a paper form, it will take you about 2 hours to collect the required proofs (proof of land ownership, drawing and ID's) and mail it. They will not reject it unless you don't qualify (No external plant or a previous misdemeanor or felony). They did not reject mine, or three others I know used the paper form. The other point the misinformed is missing about the paper form is you can claim it's submitted while the backlog makes it impossible to satisfy the requests. Doing it online gives them a break and can burn thru quicker.

Misinforming people is more a piss off than the letter. KM, if you are really going to quit, please do so and leave us the alone.


Reported and added to the ignore list. If I do get banned again for reporting this, then a lawsuit will be in the works.
Offline RCRed  
#15 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 4:01:59 AM(UTC)
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Such a kind and thoughtful individual - It's readily apparent how sorry you are for the trouble you cause.

We wanted folks to snowstorm with paper forms to give them a taste of their own medicine. You obviously don't get it.

I did not cuss you so again, you are off the chain as usual. Good luck with your suit as the judge will laugh you right out of court. Forums are free to do whatever they want - you do not pay to be here, it's free. I run three forum sites like this, and one for them for over 13 years. Trolls come and go, they get banned, threaten, only to find out they are nothing but hot air. I have consulted attorneys in the past and you are SOL, Pal.

Good luck.
Offline Bayou-Ruler  
#16 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 5:03:49 AM(UTC)
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As sands through the hour glass........... so are they days of out lives.................lol RollEyes
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Offline Alli  
#17 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 5:06:25 AM(UTC)
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"Sigh!" quote from JB.
Offline dieselduo  
#18 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 5:17:59 AM(UTC)
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this is starting to be a knightmare
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#19 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 5:29:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
Such a kind and thoughtful individual - It's readily apparent how sorry you are for the trouble you cause.

We wanted folks to snowstorm with paper forms to give them a taste of their own medicine. You obviously don't get it.

I did not cuss you so again, you are off the chain as usual. Good luck with your suit as the judge will laugh you right out of court. Forums are free to do whatever they want - you do not pay to be here, it's free. I run three forum sites like this, and one for them for over 13 years. Trolls come and go, they get banned, threaten, only to find out they are nothing but hot air. I have consulted attorneys in the past and you are SOL, Pal.

Good luck.


Well if you were calling the person that mailed out the letter a "jackass" instead of me then I am sorry, but the way you wrote your post sounded like you called me a jackass. With that in mind I'm going to sell some distilling equipment for scrap metal.
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#20 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2014 5:53:31 AM(UTC)
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Now I get why you guys encourage the "paper application" instead of using the online version. You want them to choke on the paperwork just like we have to if going legal.
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