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Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 12:51:35 PM(UTC)
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"I had one of two batches fail and I have no idea why. I'm hoping someone can shed some light on what may have gone wrong.

(All yeast and supplies acquired from Brewhaus this week)

Batch one - fail, no bubbles, even after 12hrs:
8kg Turbo yeast
Per packet instructions - 18lbs sugar, 25L filtered water, let cool to 85F
SG: 1.130
75F
Pitched directly from packet into 85F wash
No bubbles/foam at all, even after 12hrs
Pitched a little more pre-hydrated 48hr turbo pure (from second batch)
5hrs later...still nothing at all


Batch two - successful, bubbling away when checked 4hrs later
15lbs sugar, 25L filtered water per instructions
48hr turbo pure yeast, pre-hydrated it, frothing well when pitched
SG: 1.100
85F
Bubbling well when checked at 5hrs

Any idea why batch one is a complete dud? Any suggestions on what to do with it?

Thanks!
-Jimmy (trying to learn quickly)"
Offline BrokeDickBrew  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:04:12 PM(UTC)
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1. check your air lock for a leak or crack
2. some yeast will ferment slow.
3. yeast has a shelf life, the older the date on the package the more dead cells could be in the package.
4. temp is very important, if the starter was to hot adding the yeast it will kill it. i like to start my yeast at 80-90*f
5. give it a week so the cells can multiply and see what happens
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:15:28 PM(UTC)
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OK, lemme address those points from BDB:

1 - new, high quality Brewhaus fermenter and air lock - washed, sterilized, good gasket, no leaks. I can make it burp by very lightly pressing lid and testing the seal.

2- This is super turbo yeast...like the second batch, it should kick off in an hour or so and be rolling in 6hrs.

3 - The packet date was March 2014...it should be good to go

4 - Yes. Pitched yeast at 85F, accurate/verified digital thermometer used. Actually cooled down a few more degrees from there as the yeast was stirred in.

5 - well...it's just sitting there, no bubbles, no activity, nothing, dead. Not even after added the activated "second batch" yeast. I have doubts that it will spring to life in the future...but it's still capped off and waiting.

Thanks for the reply and the ideas. It's going to take a few heads to sort this out.

-Jimmy
Offline muadib2001  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:38:26 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jimmy Highflyer Go to Quoted Post
SG: 1.130
75F

The OG seems high for "normal" yeast. I'm unsure if the yeast you used can handle that high a gravity.

Did you aerate the wash?
Offline John Barleycorn  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:15:17 PM(UTC)
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Jimmy,

Batch 1 has a very high OG ... especially if you didn't rehydrate. I've never used a turbo, but in general yeast can suffer what's known as hyperosmotic shock ... which basically limits growth considerably until they adapt ... or just results in a stuck fermentation. Try rehydrating to get things going, then pitch again.

Also, if you want to use that much sugar you might want to consider adding it in steps. Take a look at how bushy did this:

http://www.brewhausforum...un&p=19983#post19983

--JB
Offline BamaDave  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:27:07 PM(UTC)
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Everything else being the same, is it possible the SG is just entirely too high for the yeast to take off? If you have room in your fermenter I would consider adding enough water to it to bring the SG down in the same range as the second batch and try pitching yeast again.
Offline BrokeDickBrew  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:42:40 PM(UTC)
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as i said #5 wait
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 3:18:23 PM(UTC)
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Again, thanks for the replies!

I aerated the wash by "dropping" the fill water in from the tube at 3' and stirring. Did the same on the second "successful" batch too.

I've been searching/reading about high SG batches...and they seem quite finaky by the reports. Some user reviews of "dud batches" in the yeast review too. I was just exactly following the instructions on the yeast pack itself - it is, after all, supposed to be a very high (20%) ABV producing turbo yeast. It sure seemed like alot of sugar for a 6.5gal (25L) batch.

I've tried the "re-hydrated" re-pitch...no dice. (although I had not reduced the SG at that point) That same yeast has taken off in the separate second batch and is going strong!

Fermenter is full. In an attempt to reduce the SG, I have removed 2L of liquid and replaced with plain filtered water, stirred. SG is now 1.120
75F...still kinda high, but better. 4hrs and still nothing...not a bubble one.

BDB, I'll check again tomorrow and see what's going on, if anything.
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 3:24:28 PM(UTC)
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"FYI - this is the yeast being used:

Batch one:
http://www.brewhaus.com/...urbo-Yeast-P836C103.aspx
-came with the starter kit
-questionable reviews about ""dud batches""

Batch two:
http://www.brewhaus.com/...bo-Pure-48-P842C103.aspx
-rolling right along"
Offline Bushy  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:26:20 PM(UTC)
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Hi Jimmy, I suggest sterilizing a 1 qt glass measuring cup or bowl, or pan, an scooping out 1 qt of the wash that is working and pour it into the one that is not working. If you can raise the temp of the wash up to 80 degrees that may also help the turbo start up.
That much sugar all at once has a very high osmotic pressure on the yeast that can slow it down or stall it out. I've found it best to start with 10 or 11 pounds and add a couple of pounds every two or three days until I reach my goal. Also I add nutrients when I add more sugar.
Another thing about putting all the sugar in at once is it can over stress the yeast causing some bad flavor in the finished product.
An aquqrium bubble rock with a small air pump is a good inexpensive investment for adding air to your wash, just be sure to sterilize it before use and clean afterwords.
Offline heeler  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 2:48:51 AM(UTC)
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"Ya know something that has not been mentioned yet is sanitation????? Were the fermenters very well cleaned?? As in sanitized and rinsed really well??? I found that if I used bleach (and you can if you rinse really well) and missed the rinse cycle or maybe did'nt get it all cleaned off that will indeed ruin the wash. If you did sanitize them both and did'nt get the other one rinsed out as well that might be a culprit.
I found that once the wash is contaminated with some cleaners, you just cant save it. Add all the yeast ya want and if its contaminated its gonna kill the next addition of yeast as well.
Just something to ponder in the quest to figger out the reasons for the failure.

And of course live and learn for the next time....."
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:16:22 AM(UTC)
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Heeler, I worried about that too as I used Dawn soap, new dedicated wash rag, then dilluted bleach as a sanitizer. I rinsed well and air dried. Saved some and put it in a spray bottle and spray/rinse everything that touches a fermenter (thermometer, hydrometer, spoon, etc)

However, it must have worked as I'm happy to report that I work up this morning to TWO bubbling fermenters!! The first batch is FINALLY doing something...albeit slowly. I'm getting a bubble every 10sec or so from batch one, and 5-7 bubbles every second from batch two (it's really going to town!). I don't think I'd call that first batch yeast a "turbo" for speed...

I'm thinking it was an osmotic issue after all. The "Yeasty-boys" have adapted/multiplied and are munching away. I think the dilution down to a OG of 1.120 helped get it going. It might have finally started on its own at 1.130 but I think if I used this combo again, I will start with less sugar and add more several days into the fermentation as suggested here - sounds like a much better plan.

Thanks all for the input and questions. All are helping get me educated and started out right!

I'll keep you posted on how things progress.

-Jimmy
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:20:24 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: Bushy Go to Quoted Post
An aquarium bubble rock with a small air pump is a good inexpensive investment for adding air to your wash, just be sure to sterilize it before use and clean afterwords.


That's a good idea. Can you describe when/how to use that properly."
Offline BrokeDickBrew  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 7:36:44 AM(UTC)
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"as your wash is cooled add the rock atatched to the pump. drop in in the wash and let it run for 30 min to a hr. it will add oxygen to the wash to help the yeast be happy. they also make a adapter to a oxygen tank and a SS stone that is alot more sanitary. check the online beer places.

do that before adding the yeast."
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:55:37 PM(UTC)
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OK, thanks. Good info. Might pick one of those up for the next run.

End of second day and batch one is coming to life...now a good bubble every second. I put some towels around it to help keep the temp up. Look like it will be a long ferment, but at least it is not dead.

Batch two is still going very strong - constant stream of bubbles, runs about +7F above ambient.

Happy yeasties...
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:55:15 AM(UTC)
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Just checking in.

This 8kg "turbo" batch sure is a SLOW fermenter. It's 16 days in and still bubbling 3-4 bubbles per burp in the air-lock every 30secs or so. SG is now 0.990...and still going. I'll just let it keep going until it stops...which looks like next year sometime. ;-)

I've run two of the other 48hr turbos and have started a third int he same amount of time.

This last run was fantastic!

Jimmy
Offline admin  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:29:04 PM(UTC)
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At 0.990 and a bubble every 3-4 seconds it sounds like fermentation is complete and the wash is just degassing.
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:35:25 PM(UTC)
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Humm...that very well could be. However, that's the rate it's been going for 2 weeks...slow and steady.

It's still cloudy with tiny bubbles coming up to the top. I'm planning to run it this weekend regardless. Should I use Sparkolloid on it first (I have not on the other batches) and force a clearing.
Offline admin  
#19 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:20:35 AM(UTC)
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I always believe in clearing, so IMO you should hit it with a clearing agent such as Sparkolloid.
Offline Jimmy Highflyer  
#20 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:37:46 AM(UTC)
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Well, since I have not done that yet...no better time to try it. Thanks.
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