 Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
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Curious to hear how folks are running thie PSIi - I've been doing the NC Hooch recipe and now a fresh plum wash in th pot still mode but with both extensions and copper scrubbers in the upper portion - so getting a little reflux with the scrubbers - initial spirits are coming off at 130 - anyone else going tall in pot still mode? Guess I may be losing a little flavor for a higher proof - thoughts? Comments? How are you running in pots still mode? I look forward to hearing how you are running
7 gallons of plum wine running now - low and slow
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 Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/27/2012(UTC)
Posts: 526
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"I run one column section for pot stilling and put one roll of copper in it to keep the nasties down. Averaging 140 proof with good flavor from my fruit ferments in this manner. If I want higher proof I use the whole column packed with copper in refux and don't expect any flavor so I use a sugar wash. I get 185 to 190 proof from this set up. I toss the fore shots and make my heads and tails cuts deep which makes for high proof hearts that are clean. I save the heads and tails from a couple of runs and then throw them into the next run. That increases the quantity on that run
Have fun"
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
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"I use the same pot config as Bushy for my stripping runs. I'll get about 5L of strips in the neighborhood of 50% from a 22L wash at around 11%. I haven't tried a spirit run with a pot configuration.
I also get similar results as Bushy using the same reflux configuration for spirit runs.
Bushy: How deep do you actually cut? When I reflux my strips (around 8-10L at 50% diluted to around 35%) I'll only keep around 1.5L (
92% or so).
I've noticed that after making cuts and diluting to 40% the product has a bit of harsh finish but the flavor/palette is very neutral. Then after about 5 weeks of sitting on the shelf, there's a definite change: I get a sweet/ester like palette, very gentle mouth feel and gentle finish -- and the abv drops about 2-4 points. It's always the same. Do you notice any such change?
I've read that keeping too much of the tails can cause this -- something about esterification (fusel alcohol + water + O2). So I have some strips that I haven't run yet that I fermented at temperatures much lower than I have used in the past to see if that makes a difference (hopefully to bring the ester/fusel production down). I've been using baker's yeast but thought I'd try some EC-1118 in the future as well since it's supposed to produce a very neutral wash (less esters than many other strains).
Anyway, I'd be interested in reading your comments ... and if you notice any similar changes after your neutrals sit on the shelf for several weeks.
--JB"
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Rank: Guest
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Posts: 5,254
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"I tried a fully packed two segment run with no water allowed to the column..fully controlled by the heat. Still seemed to come out with a refluxed type product so guess it mainly refluxed despite the lack of water. Only real pot still run I've done is one barrel..one and a half plugs of copper. Came out 120 proof as opposed to normal 170 about the same volume of product. Thats when I put it back together and left it thataway. Not quite sure how the rumor got started that refluxing robs the wash totally of its flavor. May seem true till you have a sip of a refluxed neutral as compared to a conrmeal wash also refluxed. Quite a difference in flavors there..or maybe better a lack of flavor for the neutral. I do not fall for that stripping and re running nonsense. Do it right the first time and once is plenty. Best of fortunes to you Sir. Originally Posted by: mbz250sl  Curious to hear how folks are running thie PSIi - I've been doing the NC Hooch recipe and now a fresh plum wash in th pot still mode but with both extensions and copper scrubbers in the upper portion - so getting a little reflux with the scrubbers - initial spirits are coming off at 130 - anyone else going tall in pot still mode? Guess I may be losing a little flavor for a higher proof - thoughts? Comments? How are you running in pots still mode? I look forward to hearing how you are running
7 gallons of plum wine running now - low and slow "
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
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" Originally Posted by: bigwheel I do not fall for that stripping and re running nonsense. Do it right the first time and once is plenty. Gee, I never knew I was engaging in nonsense and doing things wrong the first time. Thanks Bigwheel, for setting me straight. Do you think I would get better results if I were separating a total of 2-3L of total ethanol from a 20L charge rather than separating a 4L to ethanol from a small 10L charge, Bigwheel? I suppose I should just do things your way ... the ""right"" way ... the first time ... and just throw all that nonsense like phase diagrams in the trash and ignore Jon Stone and others. Or am I just being ... now what was the term? ... ah yes ... ""liberal?"""
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 4/14/2010(UTC)
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"Doesen't -- neutral -- mean lacking of flavor????? You will indeed get a lower proof ethanol with a potstill tower, as compared to a reflux tower and it SHOULD be more lacking in flavor when you use a reflux tower. Not sure why you would use something in your wash that adds flavor and then try to creat a neutral spirit???  "
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Rank: Guest
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"Naw..think it just a sign of folks with too much free on their hands..or maybe they just enjoy puttering around in the hooching shack etc. Certainly does not rise to the level of being an adherent of the religion of liberalism. Best clue on that is to see who goes around trying to make folks who do not agree with them shut the hell up. I know how they work because I used to be one back before getting cured. Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn Gee, I never knew I was engaging in nonsense and doing things wrong the first time. Thanks Bigwheel, for setting me straight.
Do you think I would get better results if I were separating a total of 2-3L of total ethanol from a 20L charge rather than separating a 4L to ethanol from a small 10L charge, Bigwheel?
I suppose I should just do things your way ... the ""right"" way ... the first time ... and just throw all that nonsense like phase diagrams in the trash and ignore Jon Stone and others. Or am I just being ... now what was the term? ... ah yes ... ""liberal?"" "
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 7/25/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,209
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered, Moderator
Joined: 7/25/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,209
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" Originally Posted by: heeler Doesen't -- neutral -- mean lacking of flavor????? You will indeed get a lower proof ethanol with a potstill tower, as compared to a reflux tower and it SHOULD be more lacking in flavor when you use a reflux tower. Not sure why you would use something in your wash that adds flavor and then try to creat a neutral spirit??? I really dont know where BW comes up with his mis information--its a shame."
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/27/2012(UTC)
Posts: 526
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" Originally Posted by: John Barleycorn I use the same pot config as Bushy for my stripping runs. I'll get about 5L of strips in the neighborhood of 50% from a 22L wash at around 11%. I haven't tried a spirit run with a pot configuration.
I also get similar results as Bushy using the same reflux configuration for spirit runs.
Bushy: How deep do you actually cut? When I reflux my strips (around 8-10L at 50% diluted to around 35%) I'll only keep around 1.5L (
92% or so).
I've noticed that after making cuts and diluting to 40% the product has a bit of harsh finish but the flavor/palette is very neutral. Then after about 5 weeks of sitting on the shelf, there's a definite change: I get a sweet/ester like palette, very gentle mouth feel and gentle finish -- and the abv drops about 2-4 points. It's always the same. Do you notice any such change?
I've read that keeping too much of the tails can cause this -- something about esterification (fusel alcohol + water + O2). So I have some strips that I haven't run yet that I fermented at temperatures much lower than I have used in the past to see if that makes a difference (hopefully to bring the ester/fusel production down). I've been using baker's yeast but thought I'd try some EC-1118 in the future as well since it's supposed to produce a very neutral wash (less esters than many other strains).
Anyway, I'd be interested in reading your comments ... and if you notice any similar changes after your neutrals sit on the shelf for several weeks.
--JB Hey John, I've found that the faster and or hotter your fermentation is the more fusel oils will be made. Thats from beer and mead making experience. Ive also noticed that in reflux if I try to run too fast I seem to get the fusel oils (heads and tails) kind of smeared across my hearts. Out of 3qts I get roughly the same as you 1qt pure hearts at 92% , then another 1qt that I use to make whisky out of due to it haveing more than a neutral flavor. The rest I keep until I have about a gallon then throw it into a run. Yes I understand that I'm just creating more heads and tails in that run but it seems to me I get more usable output and about the same heads and tails. Useing the pot still I'm getting 3 1/2 to 4 qt and the heads and tails are definatly spread across the run. I think that controlling your temp is key to getting the best flavor from your run and reducing that harsh bite as much as possible. I won't dilute until it has sat for at least a week in a mason jar covered with a coffee filter held on by the lid ring. Airing out does help so does ageing. I do fruit runs and grain runs in pot modemost of them turn out prety good and the ones that don't get refluxed. As far as yeast goes I have a limited experience. I've used Nottingham Ale yeast, Safbrew T-58(wine yeast), Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, Coopers brewing yeast, and EC1118.Out of those my favorites so far are the Nottingham and the Safbrew. The rest work well but I get my best results from those. I have used Turbo also but had to keep it chilled to reduce fusel production. Never tried Bakers yeast but I'm sure it would work fine.Different Yeasts produce a different flavor in your mash as will fermentation at different temps. The Ec1118 is a good producer at a very slow rate and lots of people seem to really like it. Low fusel production is one of it's best attributes. Have Fun"
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/12/2012(UTC)
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" Originally Posted by: Bushy I've found that the faster and or hotter your fermentation is the more fusel oils will be made. Thats from beer and mead making experience. Yep, you beer guys seem to be born with that knowledge.  I learned it the hard way ... THEN I payed attention to what the home brewers were saying all along. Just one brewing book later, I saw the light with the cooler fermentation temps ... supposed to reduce the ester production as well. But man, watching those hot ferments take off and finish quick is pretty cool beans! Provided you can live with hooch that ends up a bit on the ""syrupy"" side. Originally Posted by: Bushy The Ec1118 is a good producer at a very slow rate and lots of people seem to really like it. Low fusel production is one of it's best attributes.
Have Fun Well, I think that has me written all over it. I'll have to see if my local brew shop stocks the Nottingham's. Not to be a PITA, but have you ever noticed that change in character I mentioned after some shelf time? I suppose if your cuts are clean and without fusels, you would never see such a change. Thanks for the info, --JB"
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Rank: Senior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/27/2012(UTC)
Posts: 526
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"Hey John, Yes There is a difference, sometimes larger than others, when you let it breath. The longer I let it set the smoother it gets.
Have fun"
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Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/31/2012(UTC)
Posts: 109
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"I tend to use the tall stack. I keep each section packed with 4 rolls of copper mesh. I do not usually use water in the column unless trying for a complete neutral. I run it slow and keep the heat low. I am usually pressed for time when running 1-8 hour run a week is about all the time I have. I do create some neutral reflux with the copper and tall stack but I am OK with that.
I have run short stack pot modes but I cannot tell much of a difference between (stripping & spirit) and (tall with low & slow)...just MY OPINION everyones taste and nose is different...my smell of shot due to sinus issued maybe I don't know what I'm really missing.
I like it and wife likes the fruity drinks I make her...so all is good!
I have used bakers yeast and EC118. I recently bought some Distillers Yeast (DADY) I have yet to try it...perhaps this weekend if all goes well."
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Rank: Guest
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"Well I try to stay on the meds. Whuts a Mother to do? Originally Posted by: scotty "
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Rank: Guest
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Joined: 2/10/2002(UTC)
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"Scotty Scotty Scotty..if you might notice on this transmission Heeler was naggin at John Barleycorn not me. Whew it feels nice to be innocent. Now I know how OJ felt sorta. Originally Posted by: scotty I really dont know where BW comes up with his mis information--its a shame. "
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Rank: Guest
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Joined: 2/10/2002(UTC)
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Thanks for addressing this issue. Having just sacrificed myself to do a couple of expurimental washes which got themselves overheated..on behalf of all of us'uns...so can pronounce this as fit to print..lol. Mine translated into low volume. Did not notice much in the way of extry heads or tails. Alchyhol levels stayed nice and high..just not much of it. Sugar content way too high as noted by the wash checker but did not think much future in giving it more time. My mistake. Think it if had been allowed to chill out under the AC for a week it would have been fittin. I give it three days and the sugar level dropped..should have continued after seeing a pattern evolving. Now did notice the fore skins stunk a lot worse than normal. I have yet to figger out how anybody speed up or slow down a reflux still. Did not seem to speed it up none to total deprive it of water. Surely a person could jack up the heat but then it would get in the danger zone of bad things from the temp chart. What is the key here? Originally Posted by: Bushy Hey John, I've found that the faster and or hotter your fermentation is the more fusel oils will be made. Thats from beer and mead making experience. Ive also noticed that in reflux if I try to run too fast I seem to get the fusel oils (heads and tails) kind of smeared across my hearts.
Out of 3qts I get roughly the same as you 1qt pure hearts at 92% , then another 1qt that I use to make whisky out of due to it haveing more than a neutral flavor. The rest I keep until I have about a gallon then throw it into a run. Yes I understand that I'm just creating more heads and tails in that run but it seems to me I get more usable output and about the same heads and tails.
Useing the pot still I'm getting 3 1/2 to 4 qt and the heads and tails are definatly spread across the run. I think that controlling your temp is key to getting the best flavor from your run and reducing that harsh bite as much as possible. I won't dilute until it has sat for at least a week in a mason jar covered with a coffee filter held on by the lid ring. Airing out does help so does ageing. I do fruit runs and grain runs in pot modemost of them turn out prety good and the ones that don't get refluxed.
As far as yeast goes I have a limited experience. I've used Nottingham Ale yeast, Safbrew T-58(wine yeast), Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast, Coopers brewing yeast, and EC1118.Out of those my favorites so far are the Nottingham and the Safbrew. The rest work well but I get my best results from those. I have used Turbo also but had to keep it chilled to reduce fusel production. Never tried Bakers yeast but I'm sure it would work fine.Different Yeasts produce a different flavor in your mash as will fermentation at different temps. The Ec1118 is a good producer at a very slow rate and lots of people seem to really like it. Low fusel production is one of it's best attributes.
Have Fun
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Rank: Junior Member Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/14/2011(UTC)
Posts: 19
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Fun to stumble across your own original post 18 months later - I'm still going tall with copper packing, no water in the column and using he low and slow single run method - I'm hooked in he 118 as a creature of habit - but need to try a few other yeasts - thanks all for he responses
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