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Offline Alli  
#1 Posted : Thursday, January 23, 2014 7:28:46 AM(UTC)
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"[ATTACH]946[/ATTACH]
When Gary (on newdistillers
yahoogroups) asked what it would cost to get a distiller's license in Massachusetts, I thought it might be interesting to compare the fees that each state charges to get a manufacturer's distillery license. This is not an in-depth scientific survey and I in no way guarantee accuracy, however I did attempt to look at the website of each alcohol authority in every state. In a number of cases, the websites were either difficult to follow or did not explain the differences in license types and I had to call the authority and ask an agent my questions to be sure I was on the right track. Katie in Iowa went so far as to send me a description of the various licenses she had prepared to send out to anyone interested in opening a distillery in Iowa. The only questions I asked were: 1) is a state license required, 2) how much in the application fee and the annual fee, 3) is a surety bond required and if so how much, 4) I added any comments that I thought interesting. Here is what I think I learned:

1) The fees are all over the map from $10/yr. in Kansas to $9,000/yr. in Massachusetts. I have no idea where the fee structures came from or what is driving them.

2) This is significant - Many states are moving toward micro or craft distilleries as a tactic to encourage new businesses and jobs. Many of the micro type licenses carry specific stipulations - in West Virginia a micro distillery must buy at lest 25% of all of their natural ingredients from producers/suppliers in West Virginia. Most micro type licenses allow for limited production of spirits that range from 20,000 to 30,000 proof gallons per year. This makes good economic sense for every state, so while you are waiting for your congressman in DC to call you back on legalization, call you state representative and tell them to get on the band wagon with micro distilleries that carry very low permit fees.

3) The fees in many states make legal licensing very affordable if you choose to go the legal route. Craft or micro licenses are a win-win for everyone and if your state has or is considering this new law, that will make it even more affordable for the hobbyist. The TTB License cost nothing but the minimum $5000 bond - I called my insurance agent yesterday and a 4 year bond in $46/yr. The most expensive pain in the ass will be your state requirements/fees.

4) The primary focus of the TTB is taxation. All they want is your $13.50 per gallon of booze. State laws are as much or more geared toward enforcement of all the things you can't do as apposed to what you can do. Many states have stand alone alcohol beverage control agencies while others are part of the state police or revenue department. Most state offices are understaffed - of the 12 or so states I called, only 2 actually answered the phone; for the rest I had to leave a message. All eventually called me back.

5) More and more states are starting to add background checks and fingerprint cards to the application process. From where I sit, I suppose that is a good idea. The felons that can't pass the background are not going to file an application anyway, so I am not sure how much good it will do.

6) While I believe that our primary goal is to legalize hobby distilling at the national level, there will still be the individual states to deal with. There are a million laws out there about alcohol use, but if we can get the TTB laws changed to coincide with hobby/home beer and wine laws, the states may be more easily convinced to go along.

Hope some find this interesting and helpful. If not just hit the delete key.

Alli"
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Offline Hokey  
#2 Posted : Thursday, January 23, 2014 8:42:20 AM(UTC)
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Very interesting Alli. Thanks. I am going to get back on the bandwagon in Mass now that work has slowed down.
Offline Alli  
#3 Posted : Friday, January 24, 2014 5:55:16 AM(UTC)
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OK, I apologize if I mislead anyone but I was given incorrect info from the TTB on their bond requirements. I was initially told that the minimum bond was $5,000 and that is not all of the story. When filling out TTB form 5112.56 Distilled Spirits Bond application I called the TTB office in Cincinnati to double check and got the following: You apply for what they call a UNIT Bond. It includes a Distillers bond ($5000), a Warehouseman bond ($5000), a Processors bond ($5000) and a Withdrawal bond ($1000) for a total of $16,000. I called 2 bond companies and was told to expect to pay $150 to $200 per year for this sucker. As the old saying goes, everything that seems to good to be true usually is. Sorry if I confused anyone. Alli
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#4 Posted : Tuesday, January 28, 2014 11:55:09 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: Alli Go to Quoted Post
OK, I apologize if I mislead anyone but I was given incorrect info from the TTB on their bond requirements. I was initially told that the minimum bond was $5,000 and that is not all of the story. When filling out TTB form 5112.56 Distilled Spirits Bond application I called the TTB office in Cincinnati to double check and got the following: You apply for what they call a UNIT Bond. It includes a Distillers bond ($5000), a Warehouseman bond ($5000), a Processors bond ($5000) and a Withdrawal bond ($1000) for a total of $16,000. I called 2 bond companies and was told to expect to pay $150 to $200 per year for this sucker. As the old saying goes, everything that seems to good to be true usually is. Sorry if I confused anyone. Alli


Hi Alli,
That's not too bad on the bond. I talked to my local distillery and he said that he had to have at least $50K for his set up. You also need to add this to VA's license requirements: More than 5,000 gallons = $3,725.00 bucks for the license. I was told $530.00 bucks for the first year and $450.00 each year to renew it by the VABC agent."
Offline RCRed  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 28, 2014 2:42:31 PM(UTC)
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Yea, Ali, that's pretty reasonable, actually.. My quotes here from Farmer's were a tad higher..Not to mention the fact I have to insure the barn (plant) differently as well.
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#6 Posted : Wednesday, January 29, 2014 4:49:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
Yea, Ali, that's pretty reasonable, actually.. My quotes here from Farmer's were a tad higher..Not to mention the fact I have to insure the barn (plant) differently as well.


Yeah they're pretty weird in that respect too. My local distillery is having a bit of trouble with the TTB right now due to his location being a historical site. They've had their amendment sent back 4 times so far because of a mistake on the paper work. He refuses to use permits online, in which I found that when it's running properly speeds up the process. He's going through this because he wants to move one of his stills to this location to where he can hold still nights over the weekend. It's a 4 hour class that allows people to learn how to distill and make spirits.
Offline RCRed  
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:20:20 AM(UTC)
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The online app never went anywhere for me. My Paper app took 7.5 months to come back. I stopped everything till I got that back. Heck, I even filed my January TTB form with 0 gallons and a little note saying It's took 85% of 2013 to receive the permit, so I wasn't going to commence operations till '14... So, I wrote DistilliTraK while I was awaitin'....

The Barn is a steel building, insulated, heated and cooled, 110/220 runs. Right now, she's insured as an agriculture extension which is changing to an industrial rider. That is going to cost more, but not exceedingly so.
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#8 Posted : Thursday, January 30, 2014 6:26:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
The online app never went anywhere for me. My Paper app took 7.5 months to come back. I stopped everything till I got that back. Heck, I even filed my January TTB form with 0 gallons and a little note saying It's took 85% of 2013 to receive the permit, so I wasn't going to commence operations till '14... So, I wrote DistilliTraK while I was awaitin'....

The Barn is a steel building, insulated, heated and cooled, 110/220 runs. Right now, she's insured as an agriculture extension which is changing to an industrial rider. That is going to cost more, but not exceedingly so.


I got lucky with the online app because alot of other people were having problems with it, but I also had them help me out with it as well. After I got my first tower, it took 2 months for the amendment to go through. My report also had 0 gallons on it for 2013. It's expected though because they have a back log and sometimes equipment manufacturers have a back log as well. You do know that you have to keep that report for 3 years right?
Offline RCRed  
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 30, 2014 6:43:33 PM(UTC)
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Yep, I know... Got a repository all built with PDF scans of the docs and stored in my product... BigGrin In the owner profile area, I have attachment storage built in so you can store any number or types of documents.

To be fair.. They called me once after about 5 months wait. I was told then they had had staff cuts due to sequestration, and were about 3-5 months behind. It took another two months. They had questions about the dwelling and plat of the building from the public access. It turned out they also had a question about why I had tried online but stopped. I took the time to inform then that there is no "N/A" button on that app for AFP small bond requirements, and so I went the paper method.

So.. For those of you just starting that walk - take heed, one way or the other(paper form or online), but not both.
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#10 Posted : Friday, January 31, 2014 8:33:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
Yep, I know... Got a repository all built with PDF scans of the docs and stored in my product... BigGrin In the owner profile area, I have attachment storage built in so you can store any number or types of documents.

To be fair.. They called me once after about 5 months wait. I was told then they had had staff cuts due to sequestration, and were about 3-5 months behind. It took another two months. They had questions about the dwelling and plat of the building from the public access. It turned out they also had a question about why I had tried online but stopped. I took the time to inform then that there is no "N/A" button on that app for AFP small bond requirements, and so I went the paper method.

So.. For those of you just starting that walk - take heed, one way or the other(paper form or online), but not both.


I wish I had some software like that. That's very good advice on applying for a federal license. They need to make it more simple than it is. My goal is to go from a hobby distiller to a fully licensed mirco distiller.
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#11 Posted : Friday, January 31, 2014 8:55:37 PM(UTC)
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Here's the link that I found on the TTB's website on submitting a sample:

http://www.ttb.gov/ssd/beverage_alcohol.shtml

If you look on the main page of the website over on the far right hand side, you'll find links that say "how do I ?". The VABC has their own requirements that are alot more strict than the federal government's requirements are. The agent I spoke to said that alot of the laws he has to enforce are completely unnessecary and he ignores alot of them. Basically what I'm saying is that politicians pull the money card alot when it comes to home distilling in general no matter what size operation you have. The religeon card gets pulled alot to, but I shot that down in no time basically.
Offline Alli  
#12 Posted : Saturday, February 01, 2014 1:31:19 AM(UTC)
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Knightware,
Once again you are confusing people. In attempting to verify your comment about samples, all you found was a page the concerns samples for importers, customers who think they may have purchased unsafe alcohol and want to have it tested and a TTB program that is supposed to randomly select bottles of alcohol from various store shelves for sampling as a control measure. Nothing on this page has anything to do with home distilling or obtaining a DSP (Distilled Spirits Plant) permit.

The "How Do I" links you mention also have nothing to do with the subject. Try to stick to the subject at hand if you can.

Tom
Offline RCRed  
#13 Posted : Saturday, February 01, 2014 3:24:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: knightmare1015 Go to Quoted Post
I wish I had some software like that.
Anybody who wants to try DistilliTraK can have it - for free even... right now...go to the DT site, downloads page, use the beta discount code and get a copy of Home Pro and have at it.

Over the past two months I was lucky enough to be contacted by two micro distilleries about using it. The "professional" version I am now "Fermenting" has document repositories for all the monthly and daily recording. I just don't talk about it here because;

[LIST=1]
  • This is a home distiller's site
  • There has been such low interest from this site on the product (Based upon referral hits over the past three months and normalized for traffic differences between the three distilling sites I am featuring this on).
    [/LIST]

    I also want to proffer to you folks that when using government websites, remember they are built by companies that bid to the lowest bidder and the way they make bids so low is to use offshore labor, and inept most times at that.. so you end up with stupid conflicts on web forms because the abstract thinking skills of 2 year tech school grads just isn't honed yet. Other examples include HealthCrash.gov and we ALL know how well that one went...

    Sorta like my distillin' skills up agin JB or Scotty or Heeler - I am navel lint compared to their abilities until I've put in the time, effort and repetition that they have. But what I have is superior skill at is studying process and replicating with code what can be done programatically. Not because I was born with it, but because I have honed that skill for 30+ years. And I have survived 10+ purges at my company by using that skill.
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    #14 Posted : Sunday, February 02, 2014 12:31:40 PM(UTC)
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    Originally Posted by: Alli Go to Quoted Post
    Knightware,
    Once again you are confusing people. In attempting to verify your comment about samples, all you found was a page the concerns samples for importers, customers who think they may have purchased unsafe alcohol and want to have it tested and a TTB program that is supposed to randomly select bottles of alcohol from various store shelves for sampling as a control measure. Nothing on this page has anything to do with home distilling or obtaining a DSP (Distilled Spirits Plant) permit.

    The "How Do I" links you mention also have nothing to do with the subject. Try to stick to the subject at hand if you can.

    Tom


    Tom,
    I was told by the TTB that it depends on what you plan on making as to wether or not you need to submit a sample to them. Now it's a different story all together when it comes to the state. In respect to what you're saying, the TTB agent that I spoke to, also said that it's very confusing on how they've got it written as well and we can leave it at that. For those that are going legal, please talk to both the TTB along your state and local authorities before you begin this lengthy process.

    Originally Posted by: RCRed Go to Quoted Post
    Anybody who wants to try DistilliTraK can have it - for free even... right now...go to the DT site, downloads page, use the beta discount code and get a copy of Home Pro and have at it.

    Over the past two months I was lucky enough to be contacted by two micro distilleries about using it. The "professional" version I am now "Fermenting" has document repositories for all the monthly and daily recording. I just don't talk about it here because;

    [LIST=1]
  • This is a home distiller's site
  • There has been such low interest from this site on the product (Based upon referral hits over the past three months and normalized for traffic differences between the three distilling sites I am featuring this on).
    [/LIST]

    I also want to proffer to you folks that when using government websites, remember they are built by companies that bid to the lowest bidder and the way they make bids so low is to use offshore labor, and inept most times at that.. so you end up with stupid conflicts on web forms because the abstract thinking skills of 2 year tech school grads just isn't honed yet. Other examples include HealthCrash.gov and we ALL know how well that one went...

    Sorta like my distillin' skills up agin JB or Scotty or Heeler - I am navel lint compared to their abilities until I've put in the time, effort and repetition that they have. But what I have is superior skill at is studying process and replicating with code what can be done programatically. Not because I was born with it, but because I have honed that skill for 30+ years. And I have survived 10+ purges at my company by using that skill.


  • Thanks man. You're definately right about the government's choice in website design and programming and it shows too. NBC nightly news talked with a web designer and programmer about that and he said "if that were my employees and company, I would be using language that couldn't be used on the air and everyone of those employees would've been fired". It was an embarrassment to say the least.
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    #15 Posted : Sunday, February 02, 2014 2:06:32 PM(UTC)
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    In order to help end the confusion a bit let me explain what I was told by the TTB about the sample process which comes up alot when license fees and requirements are brought up.
    The state:
    Yes. A sample is more than likely required when you're going for a distiller's license in your state respectively. In fact, I don't know of any state that doesn't require a sample off hand, I'd have to look.

    Federal:
    A definate maybe. Wether they elect to have you submit a sample or not is entirely up to them. They do have a list of spirits that require a sample to be submitted. Wether it's a one time sample or on a regular basis depends on what you're planning on making. It's entirely up to them.

    Final Thoughts:
    I can see the purpose of it, but I don't think it's really nessecary unless certain circumstances apply. If they ask for me to submit one, then all I can really do is ask why and comply because refusing to cooperate can get your license voided. After all you did spend money to get that license and I don't see anyone not protecting their investment.
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