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Offline Hokey  
#1 Posted : Friday, June 28, 2013 7:47:22 AM(UTC)
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Ok, here goes. 12 gals Birdwatchers wash approximately 12.5%, PSIIHC, new RSC, two 2000 watt elements. Heat up 55 minutes which I thought was great. Unplugged top element and switched bottom one to variable. Total reflux for 45 minutes. Bumped up heat a little and turned down coolant. Tower temp stayed at 172 for the length of the run. However the maximum drip rate I could get was 2 to 3 drops/sec. Even with the controller turned to maximum on the RSC. The coolant H2o coming out of the tower was a little more than warm. The distillate was 93% so that part was great. Was I expecting too much to hope for more than 2 to 3 drops/sec? Is my new controller lacking something? Should I just plan my time better?
Thanks for any feed back.
Offline kane  
#2 Posted : Friday, June 28, 2013 8:11:04 AM(UTC)
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i dont know for sure but thats about what i get as well
30 min per pint
i am no where near a expert but it seems the faster / hotter you run the lower the abv will be
Offline Hokey  
#3 Posted : Friday, June 28, 2013 10:47:38 AM(UTC)
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I was thinking the three inch tower might be a little quicker. But if that's what it is, that's what it is. Everything else worked superb. Going to look for a 1/2 inch needle valve though.
Offline flht01  
#4 Posted : Friday, June 28, 2013 10:54:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Hokey Go to Quoted Post
...
Going to look for a 1/2 inch needle valve though.


I'm thinking about trying this one:
http://bit.ly/17qxfQb
Offline blaztaz  
#5 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:19:36 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: Hokey Go to Quoted Post
Going to look for a 1/2 inch needle valve though.


I have searched and searched for one of those. Everything was so expensive for 1/2"" until I found this one. It works GREAT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/...trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Blaztaz"
Offline flht01  
#6 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:35:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: blaztaz Go to Quoted Post
I have searched and searched for one of those. Everything was so expensive for 1/2" until I found this one. It works GREAT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/...trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Blaztaz


Thanks for the link, Blaztaz. Did you run a valve on the condenser too? I've always run it full flow from the pump and only valved the reflux.
Offline blaztaz  
#7 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 4:16:53 AM(UTC)
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"Right now I just run full on to the condenser. I only have the flow control to the reflux. I am pretty new to this and am still trying to learn how to get better control of my water for cooling. I don't have as many options as you do for heating and I am thinking that may be a problem for me in the future. Right now I just have the 1500 watt hot plate. I am running into the same problem you are seeing. I actually had a run of about 6 gallons take me 36 hours to complete. I am working on increasing my heat at the pot and dropping the temperature of the cooling water so I can control the higher temperatures in the column instead of the pot. I really need to get a higher flow as well. One thing that seems to really help me for purity is to go through the following.

Boil a pot of water and find the exact temperature that the water boiled. Then multiply that temperature by .81415. This is the temperature you should be getting good stuff. I found that altitude and barometric pressure have a pretty high affect on the actual column temperatures I should be collecting at. I actually collect the good stuff at 162f in most cases. So I have been waiting until I can feel the column begin to heat at the very bottom and then crank up the reflux cooling water. I then let the column continue to heat until I can feel that the entire column had become too hot to touch, then I start to cut back my cooling water flow to get about 10 degrees cooler than my target temperature. Then I go in stages of about 3-4 degrees and collect all I can at those temperatures. Once I reach my target temperature, I collect all I can and make my cuts.

Again, I am very new to this and my practices may explain why it takes me 36 hours and not the 5-8 hours that others are able to get.


Thanks,
Blaztaz"
Offline John Barleycorn  
#8 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 11:25:32 AM(UTC)
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Hi Hokey,
Quote:
Total reflux for 45 minutes. Bumped up heat a little and turned down coolant.

Make sure you draw off your heads before you bump up your power ... especially after letting it sit for 45 minutes. When you change things, you upset the balance and loose some of the benefit of letting things equalize (the heads won't be as compressed).

Quote:
However the maximum drip rate I could get was 2 to 3 drops/sec. Even with the controller turned to maximum on the RSC.

This is a common problem with phase angle controllers ... they are non-linear and they're not active all the way up to 100% power. I believe the maximum you can expect is about 94%, so an inexpensive RSC may not even get you that high ... maybe more like 85% or so when you go max scale. You can get some sense for this by plugging one of your household incandescent lamps into your RSC. Set the RSC to max scale, then switch the RSC in and out ... you'll more than likely see that you're no where near 100% with the RSC cut in. That range between the RSC max and 100% power is the "dead zone."

So there's only three things you can do if you need to operate in that dead zone. The first thing is to get a better power controller (which is usually unnecessary). The second is to use a heat source with a higher rating, so you have adequate power when you're well below the dead zone. The final thing is to use your power more efficiently.

Try wrapping several old towels around your boiler -- that's what I did. It doesn't cost anything so if it doesn't work, you didn't waste any money. The towels should provide enough insulation so you can operate your RSC around mid-scale ... that's where you'll get the best degree of control over your power anyway ... and it should keep your power needs well below the dead zone (an uninsulated boiler is just a radiator, so power is lost to the surrounding environment). Make sure you use cotton towels, don't use the ones with the cheap synthetic materials that might melt and stick to your boiler. You can use a few lengths of string to hold the towels in place ... a few turns around the bottom of the column, just above the tri-clamp is all that's needed.

Anyway, it's something that's easy to try and it doesn't cost anything. If it works out, you can play around with the fancy insulation (the foil insulation with the bubbles) and make yourself a shroud that you can just drop on the boiler when you set up your rig.

Regards,
--JB
Offline PrinceGnarly  
#9 Posted : Thursday, July 11, 2013 5:07:42 PM(UTC)
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I think JB hit the nail on the head, not enough heat input (or too much loss of heat). You'd be surprised how far a little bit of insulation goes. 12 gal. is a lot of liquid to keep at a boil. Heck, if it heated up in 55 min. maybe just keep both your elements on next time. I'm not sure about RSC's and phase angle stuff, never used/seen one.

Blaztaz,
Are you running the hotplate at full power? Seems like a silly question I know. I have an 1800w induction plate and right now it takes about 8 hrs to collect a gallon of 95% from 6 gal 15% mash (plus 1.5 hr heat up). 36 hrs! It must have been dripping one drop a second! Turn up the heat if you can, or insulate it like JB suggested. You should try to have a high volume of liquid going into the column and only pull out a fraction. To check your reflux rate collect output for one minute with ZERO reflux. Then collect output for one minute with some refluxing. A 4-5:1 ratio zero reflux:refluxed should be good to collect 95%.
Offline blaztaz  
#10 Posted : Friday, July 12, 2013 4:46:05 AM(UTC)
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I really do think it is the amount of heat that I am applying to the pot. I start with it cranked all the way up and it take between and hour and an hour and a half to heat up. Once I get my heat up, I cut it back to around 9 amps. This was where I needed to run it to keep my cooling water from getting too hot. The controller I am using will go up to 12.6 amps, so I am cut back quite a bit. I have insulated my kettle, so I think I have minimized the heat loss.

So yeah, the drip was slow and took forever. I have only had a few runs under my belt, so I am very much in the learning phase of all of this.

From what everyone has been saying, I need to do the following:

1. INCREASE the heat on the kettle
2. Find a way to cool my cooling water more. Not ice cold, but much cooler than the 85f I get with my current method.

If I can do those two things, I should be able to keep my abv pretty high and increase my flow.

Thanks again,
Blaztaz
Offline PrinceGnarly  
#11 Posted : Friday, July 12, 2013 9:53:35 AM(UTC)
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"
Originally Posted by: blaztaz Go to Quoted Post

2. Find a way to cool my cooling water more. Not ice cold, but much cooler than the 85f I get with my current method.


Yes! I run a recirculating pump with ice-cold to cool water that way I can get a good output and keep a good reflux also. Is that from your tap or a hose outside or somethin'? You should be able to increase the heat some more with cooler water. Just make sure you are still getting a high purity with the faster output. I guess mine drips several drops a second, sometimes a thin stream if I haven't iced my water recently. Also slows WAY down toward the last 1/4 of the distillation. Took me an hour to collect 100mLs at the very end. Good to the last drop!"
Offline kane  
#12 Posted : Friday, July 12, 2013 10:09:17 AM(UTC)
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let me see if i got this right so the colder the condenser water the more it will produce / drip
Offline RCRed  
#13 Posted : Friday, July 12, 2013 10:30:18 AM(UTC)
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I've been searching over at HD for a thread that talks about this, because I know I read it somewhere between here and there. I'm concerned now that I might be doing it wrong. I get the same results as PrincG above, but mostly I lower heat in small increments whe the temps spike to hold the curve as slow as I can as it rises..temp increase is inevitable as the wash is distilled off, so it's gonna climb any how.. The only question is should we be letting that coolant flow warm up as the run progress too...I've been keeping mine fairly cold thruought by refreshing with fresh ice jugs once the existing ones thaw completely and my water temp rises.
Offline PrinceGnarly  
#14 Posted : Friday, July 12, 2013 12:02:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: kane Go to Quoted Post
let me see if i got this right so the colder the condenser water the more it will produce / drip


Let me start at the bottom, the heat source. As you apply more heat more vapor is forced through the column. When it gets to the still head it has two choices, exit or reflux. If you have colder water going through your tower you can have more vapor passing through and still maintain the same reflux ratio. With more vapor coming through you need the extra cooling to make the same percent fall back into the column as reflux.

RC, I don't let think we should let the coolant warm up. At least that's how I feel. Seems to me that a consistent coolant temp is almost as important as a constant heat source, so far as good separation is concerned. When mine gets close to the end of a run I definitely have to crank up the reflux a little more to keep the temp from climbing past what I deem "acceptable."

Side note, might be of interest, I only collect a 2*C range. So anything before say 75*C I cut as heads and anything after 77*C I don't collect. This way I only collect 95% EtOH. Of course at the end one would imagine the reflux ratio is much much greater than the 4-5:1 during the hearts. Technically, the still would come to a full reflux once all EtOH is removed.

p.s. I'm in the mountains so that's about right for EtOH's boiling point after it's adjusted.
Offline Hokey  
#15 Posted : Friday, July 12, 2013 12:38:53 PM(UTC)
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Hey JB, thanks for the good info about heat adjustment. I don't think I smeared much because I had already taken about 2 pts. off when I started to run it a couple days before and my RSC S#
! the bed. I had less than a pint on the second try with a new RSC that smelled of heads. Sorry for the late thanks. We had our pool re-built and was helping keep things clean. Now that there are no "cowens and evesdroppers" around I can get back to it. Another Birdwatchers coming up.
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